"I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader?"

Bit of a tempest in the nascent Star Wars: Old Republic community boards today, when a player discovered that such words as “gay”, “lesbian” and “cryptofascist” were added to the obscenity filter. The forums nerd raged about this until the Bioware CM, Sean Dahlberg posted that the words were being filtered because

As I have stated before, these are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.

Thread closed.

The fine, fine moderate journalists at Kotaku thus immediately posted a story with the words “BIOWARE: THERE ARE NO GAYS IN STAR WARS” which caused the nerd rage to explode into a fury of POLITICAL nerd rage, ending only with Dahlberg apologizing directly to the player making the original post.

Well, isn’t that special. My take on all this:

  • This isn’t a tempest in a teapot, it’s a tempest in a thimble that may someday, possibly, hold a tea leaf. The “community” for SW:TOR doesn’t have a lot of actual game to discuss, so they talk about things like, oh, the political implication of words in your censor file. This is a pretty powerful argument that there’s no real reason to, you know, host forums for a game that is years from actually technically existing. The rabid fans who want to discuss their own personal views of how SW:TOR will implement womprat husbandry can do so on someone else’s dime. Kotaku wouldn’t have cared less if IGN added “lesbian” to their autocensor filter.
  • But say TOR was actually in beta, or up and running. My initial reaction is that there’s a suite of topics, mostly involving politics, religion, and the various convergences thereof, that simply aren’t appropriate for an official MMO discussion board. There are many topics that you just simply don’t want to worry about moderating. An intelligent moderation is key here – discussing LGBT-friendly guilds and issues raised from that (mostly involving 12 year olds saying “ghey” a lot) is on topic. Discussing your views on California’s Proposition 8 isn’t.  Real world politics is not a morass you want to dive into, because people with very valid opinions that differ violently from yours are still your paying customers. Note: simply adding words like “lesbian”, “gay”, “mormon” and “Arlen Spector” to your autocensor file does not count as  intelligent moderation.
  • Gay marraige is a third rail at the moment. The folks at Turbine (who have tended to be fairly liberal politically) punted on the issue for LOTRO by simply saying that it didn’t work with the license. Blizzard has been fairly conservative on the issue, to much distress. (Ironically, one of the guild names listed in that story as protesting Blizzard’s actions is a crystal clear TOS violation, or would be if anyone at Blizzard knew what it meant. Hint: it’s not Stonewall Champions!)  There is no good answer here. If you disallow same-sex marraige, you piss off a solid minority of your player base. If you allow same-sex marriage, you piss off a solid minority of your player base. If you disallow ANY marriage, you piss off a solid majority of your player base. So really, just do what you feel is right, since there’s no right answer here. I tend to the Sims solution – just let the players do what they want, and be completely agnostic about it. Which – not surprisingly – will piss off a solid minority of your player base.
  • You guys DO know Alec Guiness was bisexual, right?
  • Sanya Weathers thinks the issue is a bit simpler.

In case you’re wondering, I think that banning any kind of virtual relationship between avatars makes you look like a reactionary monkey. I also think that most in game relationships are between people who are male in the physical world. Finally, I think that if the Jedi council were real, they would think this entire discussion is for mental midgets without any awareness or comprehension of the serious issues endangering the citizens of the galaxy.

The REAL question of course, is which way Boba Fett swings. Because, you know, which ever way he does? That way is correct.

Advertisements

106 Responses to "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader?"

  1. Bilsybub says:

    Boba Fett swings my way.

  2. Rohan says:

    You’d think Bioware would have just punted to George Lucas / Lucasfilm. That way you don’t get the License owner upset with you later, and you can deflect the outrage on the forums to someone else.

  3. DrewC says:

    In Pirates we had a mission arc where you end up choosing an NPC to marry. Having both male and female characters we had both male and female NPCs for the player to choose from, and we decided to allow you to marry an NPC of the same gender. By and large this wasn’t a problem except for the people who thought it would be ‘teh funny’ to choose a gay relationship and then were very upset when they couldn’t change their mind later. We eventually implemented a way for players to select a different spouse (hey, it’s the 1720’s, it happened).

    Moral of the story? People love to experiment, but they don’t want to be stuck with the consequences.

  4. Raad says:

    I hope he swings my way. I like being right.

  5. sidereal says:

    I mostly agree, except with the claim that using the word ‘gay’ is inherently political (or even related to “LGBT issues”, etc). Is the comment

    “Hey, even I think the elf on the box art is hot, and I’m gay!”

    inherently political? There are people who believe every reference to homosexuality is prima facie offensive or political, but the number is dwindling and I don’t think MMO developers do themselves any favors throwing in their lot with that solid minority.

  6. dartwick says:

    Developers wouldnt be in the box if half the gay community didnt get their panties in a knot every time someone uses gay as a mild pejorative.

  7. Merkwurdigliebe says:

    This is why I don’t read message boards for games that don’t exist, games that do exists, or games that don’t have boobies.

  8. Sanya says:

    @dartwick

    /blinks in confusion

    Er, not being gay, I can’t say I’m speaking for the gay community or anything, but… using a trait inherent to an individual, something that cannot be helped, as a pejorative… it’s offensive. Really.

  9. hitnrun says:

    “My initial reaction is that there’s a suite of topics, mostly involving politics, religion, and the various convergences thereof, that simply aren’t appropriate for an official MMO discussion board.”

    This.

    Actually, the unholy trinity of polite discussion is sex, politics, and religion. LGBT issues score all of one and at least a third of the other two. There’s simply nothing productive that will be explored about these topics in any informal discussion on boards for an unreleased videogame, much less a rapid-fire discussion, much less an anonymous rapid-fire discussion where the sole scoring measure is how many catch phrases you can use while expanding your e-sneer.

    Why should it be a mod’s job to adjudicate these inevitable arguments (by calling them arguments I’m dignifying them overmuch) indefinitely, especially when one false move could cost your job and your company a slew of sales or a seven figure lawsuit?

  10. Not You says:

    Actually, poll after poll and election after election clearly shows the majority is against gay marriage. Even in liberal California.

    The LGBTQ community is simply louder and more obnoxious.

  11. Boanerges says:

    My general rule of thumb on conversations is this: if it doesn’t help the situation at hand, or will likely inflame passions, skip it. It’s that simple. The major question for the woman in the article is “What does whom you like to have sex with have anything to do with WoW?”. You can be LGBT friendly all you want. Knock yourself out. Make your entire guild chat nothing but that. I really don’t care. But when you let people advertise that, what’s to stop some guy from advertising that he’s running a porn guild? Or a cyb0r guild? What does anything that goes on outside the game have to do with playing a MMO? Trying to state that those activities are part of “who you are” and might be somehow different also goes beyond the scope of what’s at hand. It doesn’t help.

    And the stupidity runs deep on both sides of any issue. Lest anyone think the only bad things happen to gays and friends of gays…

    There was even an in-game protest where players tried to block a marriage ceremony because the participants were “flaunting their heterosexuality”.

    Just skip it. Sex has no place in an MMO (unless you’re talking about Second Life, where it’s a tradeskill).

  12. JuJutsu says:

    All the posts are about gay and lesbian….what about cryptofascist? Surely one of the most basic freedoms on mmo boards is to call someone a cryptofascist, even if you’re NOT Prokofy Neva.

  13. dartwick says:

    Sanya :
    @dartwick
    /blinks in confusion
    Er, not being gay, I can’t say I’m speaking for the gay community or anything, but… using a trait inherent to an individual, something that cannot be helped, as a pejorative… it’s offensive. Really.

    Im not saying people arent offended. Im saying they need to let it go. Or perhaps register their disagreement simply and move on, with out drama of demanding game developers play social police and ban every teen who does it.

    Additionally at some level many people need to be offended less when all sorts of traits are used as pejoratives. When someone goofs up its not an assault on humanity if you call them a “moron” or “retard”. If someone throws a fit its not horrible when they are referred to as “going mental”. If someone doesnt see the obvious its ok to call them “blind.”
    And accept it, being gay vs straight is not the same being white vs asian. Many gays act in way particular to being gay. Its not exactly unreasonable acknowledge this and use it as a metaphor for others behavior at times.

    Developers are in a box in trying to sort out these issues. Its bad enough when forum moderators have to sort between proper and improper use of “gay.” (and boy is it fun to use the word gay in a vague but reasonable manner on forums just to perplex mods.) Game devs shouldnt have to to sort though proper and improper usage of a word in chat.

    NOTE: To be clear Im NOT talking about attacks directed at gays, which obviously are unreasonable.

  14. Jeff R says:

    Wow. This whole issue just blows my mind. Sean Dahlberg should not have apologized to anyone. I’m what you probably consider a Star Wars geek. Loved most of the movies, liked most of the books. Never, ever, in any book, game or movie have I seen any reference to a gay couple. It just doesn’t exist in the Star Wars universe, cannon or not.

    “These are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.” That is a statement of fact. No one cares what you do in your bedroom, get over yourself.
    I’ve worked in the gaming press, I understand the need for “hits”, but I’ll never read Kotaku again if this is their idea of journalism. What a joke.

  15. VPellen says:

    I think that the safest way to deal with gay marriage in an MMO is to not deal with it at all. If nothing else, you can use the cover of “we have more important issues to worry about at the moment”. It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit. If I were behind the wheel so to speak, I’d allow it, but that’s more about who I am as a person than for any justifiable design decision.

    Enforcing a coverall policy on your forums that you can’t discuss the “unholy trinity” (as hitnrun put it) is probably a good idea, but there’s a flipside; Back in my time as an MMORPG.com moderator, I ran some checks and discovered that the “off topic” forum of the website, a forum devoted pretty much entirely to the unholy trinity, also happened to be the most active forum on the entire website. Even more so than the “General MMO Discussion” board.

    Censoring the words “Gay” and “Lesbian” on either your forums or in game is a phenomenally retarded idea, if only because it does nothing to keep people from discussing it whilst also pissing off a good portion of your playerbase. Censoring those words is going to piss off far more people than not censoring them will. And quite frankly, if your forums are so laden with discussions of homosexuality that you have to put in fucking wordfilters to counteract it, then perhaps your forums aren’t quite as family friendly as you’d like to believe.

    MMOs may not be about sex, but MMOs are about people, and last I checked, sex and love is a pretty big subcatagory of “significant things to do with people”.

  16. Matt Mihaly says:

    Jeff R wrote:

    Wow. This whole issue just blows my mind. Sean Dahlberg should not have apologized to anyone. I’m what you probably consider a Star Wars geek. Loved most of the movies, liked most of the books. Never, ever, in any book, game or movie have I seen any reference to a gay couple. It just doesn’t exist in the Star Wars universe, cannon or not.

    That’s clearly not the reason it was banned. I’m fairly certain the words ‘internet’, ‘America’, and ‘Jesus’ are never mentioned in the Star Wars cannon and yet they’re not banned.

    Let’s not pretend we’re stupid here and act as if the cannon was anything but a transparent, lame excuse.

    –matt

  17. Matt Mihaly says:

    Jeff R wrote:

    It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit.

    I’m not privy to the code, but I think you’re probably wrong. If marriage is in the game it’s almost certainly extra work to stop same sex couples from marrying each other. Granted, the extra work should boil down to about five seconds of code if it’s written intelligently, but the game doesn’t recognize differences between genders until you tell it to.

    In other words, preventing gay marriage in-game isn’t a matter of not having time to implement it – it’s an intentional, conscious design decision that took extra work to enact in the first place.

  18. Vetarnias says:

    @DrewC
    Yes, I remember that bit of PotBS lore quite well, and I recall that you brought that in because a few of the players were… shall we say dismayed?… at the finality of the choice.

    Glad to hear you can now change spouses. However, I wonder what would have happened if you had stuck to realism and made every French and Spanish character wait a couple of years while the case wound its way to the Pope.

  19. EpicSquirt says:

    Obscenity filters are idiotic, so are all MMO-related forums, especially the official ones.

    Unshaved men (gay or not) taste like chicken btw., you should try it out by kissing one.

  20. Vetarnias says:

    @Scott Jennings

    I didn’t know that Alec Guinness was bisexual. But I do know that his surname, like the beer, has two “n”‘s in it.

    As for the subject at hand. Strangely enough, I don’t think it matters much outside of a few roleplayers (who certainly won’t be stopped by a language filter).

    So I’ll take a cop-out of my own and say that as far as I’m concerned, the filter is useless, unless it’s just the type of thing to get on the good side of the legal system by being seen as doing something to prevent hate speech.

    I guess that means that for the rest of us, we won’t be able to discuss Friedrich Nietzsche’s “The *** Science”, or John ***’s “The Beggar’s Opera”, conversations found in MMORPG’s on a regular basis. Why, Lexical Functional Grammar is mentioned quite a few times in chat, as is the 19th-century British illustrator Charles Norris.

  21. Technogeek says:

    The fact that Bioware were the ones who created Juhani gives this whole shitstorm (particularly the comment that set it off) an extra layer of comedy to me.

  22. IainC says:

    dartwick :

    Im not saying people arent offended. Im saying they need to let it go. Or perhaps register their disagreement simply and move on, with out drama of demanding game developers play social police and ban every teen who does it.
    Additionally at some level many people need to be offended less when all sorts of traits are used as pejoratives. When someone goofs up its not an assault on humanity if you call them a “moron” or “retard”. If someone throws a fit its not horrible when they are referred to as “going mental”. If someone doesnt see the obvious its ok to call them “blind.”
    And accept it, being gay vs straight is not the same being white vs asian. Many gays act in way particular to being gay. Its not exactly unreasonable acknowledge this and use it as a metaphor for others behavior at times.

    Please stop talking.

  23. Gx1080 says:

    In one hand, the way of Bioware to handle this its retard, mainly because a)Its a completely lack of diplomacy and a major sample of bigotry and b)How do you know if they werent gays in Satr Wars, its a huge galaxy (and i dare anybody to tell me that you didnt ever think in “secret rituals” betwen padawan and master).

    That said, if they didnt do it for liking acting like jerks, then i bet that they are just scared of being sued (like every company out there), they panicked and did a stupid thing.

    And for all the gay comunity, chill a little, as ive said, people do stupid things when they are scared of being sued.

  24. Gx1080 says:

    Oh by the way:

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=26291&page=17

    The BioWare guys retracted and allow players say those words.

  25. EpicSquirt says:

    You know what’s odd, after thinking about it for a while, I don’t have a problem with writing something like

    I went mental on that retarded dude, either he was blind or a moron, but his actions fucked up that gay server even more.

    in English (foreign language for me) but I would never write it in this way in Polish (native) or German (the language I use most nowadays).

    Also, my gf complained about me cursing too much when being on voice comms, but I only curse when speaking English.

    So where did this come from? I suppose that I’ve inherited that habit from some people I’ve read or heard. It’s not something to be proud of, so I can understand efforts to keep forums clean, but word based filters are the wrong way. Sensible moderators would be better.

  26. dartwick says:

    Please stop talking.

    Oh nos!!! you dont like the common sense of the un-PC.

    People need to accept some mild humor about generalizations. If you dont personally fit the generalization you need to suck it up and move on. This goes for gays, fundies, whites, rednecks, blacks, jews, muslims and etc.

  27. Freakazoid says:

    I can sort of understand blocking gay and lesbian, but cryptofacism? Secret affiliations are practically a core storytelling component for star wars. The Sith wouldn’t be who they are if they all had to be out in the open. I find that more stunning than any perceived gay issues.

  28. Queso says:

    I have a roomate who is gay and he plays wow. We dont play on the same servers, but I am sure the one I play on is no different from the rest with all the gay bashing, racism etc.

    I dont wear headphones when I am raiding, so whenever someone in the raid says the F word, I always feel embaressed and ashamed that I play with some of these people.

    With that said, and I agree with Lum on its probably in the best intreset of the moderators of the forums to not allow this kind of discussion, but to actually ban the words Gay and Lesbian is taking it a bit far in my opinion. Granted, probably never going to be in use other than politcal discussion, but they arnt bad, derogetory words by any stretch of the imagination.

  29. Pinwiz says:

    >Gay marraige is a third rail at the moment.

    Only if you’re not paying attention. Since the first of the year, the polls have shown that the percentage of Americans in favor of Gay Marriage have increased from the low 30s to the middle 40s. It will only increase. Gay Marriage will happen, and nothing will stop that.

    As for the incident, it was a colossally idiotic move by Bioware and I anyone who is surprised by the outcome isn’t conscious.

    (aka some straight people just don’t get it)

  30. IainC says:

    dartwick :

    Please stop talking.

    Oh nos!!! you dont like the common sense of the un-PC.
    People need to accept some mild humor about generalizations. If you dont personally fit the generalization you need to suck it up and move on. This goes for gays, fundies, whites, rednecks, blacks, jews, muslims and etc.

    No, I object to you being wrong.

    It’s simply wrong to conflate ‘gay’ with pejorative terms like ‘moron’ or ‘retard’ as you did earlier. It’s also wrong to use terms like ‘black’ or ‘jew’ in a pejorative way as you suggested above. If you don’t understand that then I’d venture that it isn’t me who has the common sense issue.

  31. Trife says:

    I think it’s flawed when you are going to punish people for subjecting themselves to ridicule. Do we punish people who travel through the bad parts of town and wonder why they get mugged? Opening yourself up to being victimized may be dumb on your own part, but punishing you to prevent the crimes against you just ruins the whole concept of protecting you.

    Say “I’m gay” and you get in trouble.

  32. dartwick says:

    @ pinwiz
    I dont think you want to use common consensuses as an argument here.

    Over the past 20 years the general population has become far far more accepting of gays in everyday life and at the same time “gay” has become a common slang pejorative between straights – often by the same people.

    (aka some gay people just dont get it)

  33. J. says:

    You’re all a bunch of cryptofascists.

  34. dartwick says:

    Ian C

    @IainC
    Well “gay” falls into a category of its own. Its not like being white or black(because its an exception to the norm in a population) and its not like being mentally retarded(because its not a disability.)

  35. taodon says:

    As a gay man, I can honestly say – *yawn* – here’s why:
    1. The game doesn’t exist yet.
    2. The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced. He could have wrote what he did differently, and things would not have exploded. The whole thing was overreaction by overly sensitive knee-jerk reactionaries.
    3. When I play MMOs – it is to escape RL. Why would I want to bring my real world life into a place I’m using to escape? It’s like shitting where you sleep.
    4. If you need to be gay married, or straight married even, in a video game in order to complete your life – you have no life.
    5. Most gays get over the “Waaah, I’m a victim” stage after awhile. Whoever started this cry-fest needs to accept themselves and stfu.
    6. Gays, do, in fact, exist in Star Wars. Hello – you can’t tell me that Han didn’t like being mastered by that bear he called Chewbacca.

  36. Jeff says:

    taodon >
    6. Gays, do, in fact, exist in Star Wars. Hello – you can’t tell me that Han didn’t like being mastered by that bear he called Chewbacca.

    That is just wrong on soooo many levels.

  37. Jeff says:

    Matt Mihaly :
    Jeff R wrote:

    It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit.

    I’m fairly certain I didn’t type what you’re quoting me as typing.

  38. J. says:

    taodon :
    The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced.

    The moderator used to be the community manager for Shadowbane.

  39. Vetarnias says:

    In a way, all this conversation just speaks of something far more deserving of concern than homosexuality.

    I’m talking about the failure of MMORPG’s as RPG’s, and the demise of roleplay.

    It’s probably why I’ve always despised voice chat as well; it breaks the illusion (besides all the privacy concerns). But to return to the subject, why some people would want to transpose their real-life sexuality into an MMO is beyond me. Sure, roleplay a homosexual if you happen to be one in real life and feel like creating a gay character, but why go into all this “LGBT inclusive guild” stuff which obviously is all about real life?

    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.

    But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

  40. Bonedead says:

    I can see where they were coming from (though it seems like someone shot from the hip or didn’t really think about it) due to gay and lesbian usually being used on MMO forums as insults. But, those words when compared to other words that are filtered by default, are not nearly as big of a problem. If you just want to try and stop people from calling others gay, you could do an alright job by throwing money at it, but is it really worth it? Probably not, no. If you have forum mods (and I’m sure they do) who peruse through the topics and look for personal attacks, that’s probably the best option. If you want to throw money at it though, just have gay and lesbian etc send a flag to some inbox and then someone goes through all of those to see if they’re personal attacks or not. Meh I say!

  41. Amaranthar says:

    DrewC :
    In Pirates we had a mission arc where you end up choosing an NPC to marry. Having both male and female characters we had both male and female NPCs for the player to choose from, and we decided to allow you to marry an NPC of the same gender. By and large this wasn’t a problem except for the people who thought it would be ‘teh funny’ to choose a gay relationship and then were very upset when they couldn’t change their mind later. We eventually implemented a way for players to select a different spouse (hey, it’s the 1720’s, it happened).
    Moral of the story? People love to experiment, but they don’t want to be stuck with the consequences.

    When you think about it, that’s actually a pretty good Life’s Lesson. You know, “If you think you might regret it later, don’t do it.”

    I think you did something good there, beyond games. Maybe games need more of this sort of thing. Maybe the change you offered later should have been a pain in the arse to do for the player, and I don’t know how you did it.

  42. harl says:

    >If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.

    This

  43. Mortarion says:

    Vetarnias :
    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.
    But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

    FINALLY, someone with a pro-dwarf agenda! Power to the short people! Beards & beer for all!

    🙂

  44. Matt Mihaly says:

    @Jeff
    Sorry about that. It was ‘VPellen’ that I should have been quoting there.

  45. pharniel says:

    Mortarion :

    Vetarnias :If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

    FINALLY, someone with a pro-dwarf agenda! Power to the short people! Beards & beer for all!

    Indeed. When will the world finnaly acknowledged that the elvan holocost is a propaganda tool of the fae conspiracy?

    HEAR THE TRUTH BROTHERS!

  46. Numtini says:

    Most likely the terms were banned by a general obscenity filter built into the board, it was the Bioware reps post that was really out of line. It was stupid and amateurish.

    As to why being gay or straight comes up in games, it comes up in games because real life comes up in games. The same reason I know my guildleader is Canadian or that our raid leader is a veterinary student or that one of our raiders is hearing impaired or another lives in Florida. It’s not a political statement, it’s just a male voice on vent saying he has to log to meet his boyfriend. Bang, your game is suddenly infected with The Gay. Believe it or not, something like that is enough to get you guildkicked from some idiot guilds. Yeah, who wants to be in a guild like that anyway, but frankly I’m too old to deal with bigoted chimps, so I’m going to look for a guild that’s GLBT friendly (most of which are still majority straight).

  47. foolsage says:

    dartwick :
    Ian C
    @IainC
    Well “gay” falls into a category of its own. Its not like being white or black(because its an exception to the norm in a population) and its not like being mentally retarded(because its not a disability.)

    Actually, that’s pretty vapid reasoning. “Gay” isn’t a category of its own, it’s just a descriptor referring to a group of people. It’s precisely like any other adjective.

    Using a descriptor referring to any group of people, whether it’s racial, religious, political, or sexual, in a derogatory manner unrelated to its original meaning, is fundamentally childish and ignorant. It’s always – by definition – innately offensive to the people the term actually refers to, and it’s in this case clearly rooted in simple homophobia (gay = bad).

    If e.g. people used the word “Muslim” to mean anything generically bad or unpleasant, that’d be offensive to Muslims. If e.g. people used the word “Italian” in the same manner, that’d be offensive to Italians. When you use the word “gay” in the same manner it’s offensive to gays. This is pretty simple stuff.

    Claiming that people should accept your intolerance and homophobia and “just get over it” is unreasonable. Arguing that intolerance and ignorance are common and should be ignored is also fundamentally foolish.

    There’s no good defense for this; give it up and grow up.

    I’m not gay, just unwilling to accept bigotry in any form.

    *******

    @ Vetarnias: “Sure, roleplay a homosexual if you happen to be one in real life and feel like creating a gay character, but why go into all this “LGBT inclusive guild” stuff which obviously is all about real life?
    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.”

    The goal there I believe is to create a group of people who are accepting of each other and comfortable talking OOC about their lives in guild chat/forums/whatever. Whether they choose to roleplay or not isn’t the issue – the issue is that *some* OOC talk will inevitably happen somewhere, sometime, in every guild. In LotRO my wife and I belonged to a family-oriented guild; though there were a few teenagers most of us were in our 30s and 40s. We just liked being around other mature people that shared some of our interests and background. I imagine the LGBT guilds have the same objective, with the added concern that intolerance is a common problem for them.

    *******

    On the main subject, I think the CM response was pretty silly. The smartest thing the devs can do is distance themselves from the topic entirely. Making any sort of rules about what relationships can exist is frankly unnecessary and inevitably going to bite you on the ass. Forum discussions about sex, politics, or religion should simply be ignored by the devs as completely unrelated to the game. Let people make LGBT guilds, or Christian guilds, or Republican-only guilds, or Italian-only guilds if they want. Let them discuss it with each other on the forums too. Contrariwise, you can ban all mention of sexuality, religion, race, or politics from the forum, but such a ban has to be total and consistent or bias becomes evident and the players will revolt. Good luck with that.

  48. ceolstan says:

    I am part of a large gaming community, and we discovered fairly early on that we’d censored the words “gay” and “queer” on our boards in an attempt to prevent the kinds of unwitting anti-gay comments that equate homosexuality with stupidity or general asshatery. However, we also discovered that we’d limited ourselves from discussing issues of homosexuality as they arose in game because of our obscenity filters. As a result, we changed the filters, and reminded our moderators that there was nothing wrong with the words “gay” or “queer.” There was a lot wrong with using either in a pejorative sense, and understanding that distinction was why we had moderators in the first place.

    The issue of whether or not gay relationships are part of a videogame is another issue altogether. If a game offers a relationship dimension, then same-sex relationships are, at least in my opinion, part of the landscape. Now, I do play Far Cry 2, and I’m fairly certain that there would be little room for any kind of relationship, though I do think my skanky, tattooed weasel of a guy would probably have had sex with the one female buddy if he’d had a chance. But most of the time there was too much shooting going on to concentrate on any other kind of relationship. I’ve played a lot of the Neverwinter 2 games, and there I am dead certain that my female toons are significantly more attracted to the female cohorts that share their alignment and religious beliefs.

    If there’s a point to all of this, it’s that an RPG game needs to consider whether relationships will be coded into the game. If they are, then that opens up discussions of what can be permitted under the ratings guidelines. A T=Teen game will have different possibilities than an M=Mature game. I do not know whether gay relationships are M=Mature, but I hope not. Rather, I’d want the rating to be a gauge of permissible explicitness. MMOs are different. Players are fairly free to interact how they wish online, save for whatever safeguards are placed with respect to exploitation. At that point, whatever the virtual relationship is, it’s fine with me, as long as it’s between two consenting toons.

  49. taodon says:

    J. :

    taodon :
    The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced.

    The moderator used to be the community manager for Shadowbane.

    Well then – I was right.

  50. neispace says:

    Freakazoid:

    Wasn’t cryptofascist a term by a pretty annoying net movement a while back? Something like scientology that derided people as crytpofascists while being annoying as hell on forums. I wanted to say neoseekers, but I can’t rememeber the name of the adherents.

  51. Bugz says:

    Crap. This is just another excuse for the League of Perpetually Outraged Persons to put the spotlight upon themselves.

    It’s politically correct bullshit, and Bioware should be ashamed of themselves for caving to it.

  52. Joshua Meadows says:

    Not You :
    Actually, poll after poll and election after election clearly shows the majority is against gay marriage. Even in liberal California.
    The LGBTQ community is simply louder and more obnoxious.

    They were against it in the 70s too when black people wanted to marry white people.

    Thank god the US constitution is set up to protect the minority against the majority, huh?

  53. foolsage says:

    Bugz :
    Crap. This is just another excuse for the League of Perpetually Outraged Persons to put the spotlight upon themselves.
    It’s politically correct bullshit, and Bioware should be ashamed of themselves for caving to it.

    Your intent is unclear here. Are you suggesting that Bioware should have stood firm by their decision that sexuality is ok to discuss but not LGBT issues? Or are you saying they should have stayed out of the whole issue?

  54. Joshua Meadows says:

    Trife :
    Say “I’m gay” and you get in trouble.

    Why is it fair for anyone to need to be concerned about sharing that?

    If you say “I’m a girl in RL” in a game you get a fuckton of lewd sexually suggestive offers too. Should girls be afraid to speak out about it?

    I have a feeling you’ll say yes, that isn’t the correct answer though; just so we’re clear.

  55. geldonyetich says:

    To an extent, we’re just part of the League of Perpetually Outraged Persons to even bear this any notice. It’s a bit of self-inflicted human delusion.

    Consider, for example, that Kirsten Dunst is hot. Yes, she likely is fully capable of having sex, but believing you’ll ever have anything to do with her is nothing but flat out self-delusion. Why are you turned on? It’s a non-happening.

    Now consider that some people prefer to bugger those of the same gender. You don’t have that preference, it has completely nothing to do with you, and it’s self-delusion to believe it does. Why are you so concerned with their sexuality? They’re not buggering you, that too is a non-happening.

    So why, exactly, does it bother us at all that anyone would use the term “gay” or “lesbian?” Because we’re evolved monkeys whose newfound intelligence has the unfortunate side effect that it’s a whole lot easier to delude ourselves. Period. End of story.

    What significance does Bioware’s choice to add these words to their obscenity filter have? Whatever significance you assign to it. Meaning is interesting in that it is a human invention. What we’re debating about here is the non-presence of a couple of arbitrary labels.

  56. maess says:

    I find it amusing that some of you who are offended by the use of the word ‘gay’ as a pejorative have no problem using the word ‘retarded’ the same way…

  57. Brent Michael Krupp says:

    maess :
    I find it amusing that some of you who are offended by the use of the word ‘gay’ as a pejorative have no problem using the word ‘retarded’ the same way…

    Being retarded is actually a bad thing. It’s wrong to be mean to retarded people and retarded is considered an impolite word to use for them and it’s crude to call people you don’t like retarded but the word is inherently negative.

    Unless you’re a homophobe, gay is not inherently negative. Using it as a synonym for bad is worse than using retarded that way.

  58. wowpanda says:

    One of my friend once said, he wanted his country to be just like America, where instead of fighting for food/living space to survive, they fight over abortion and gay issues.

    It will be very interesting to see what the next big issues are after the above two.

  59. Bugz says:

    foolsage :

    Bugz :Crap. This is just another excuse for the League of Perpetually Outraged Persons to put the spotlight upon themselves.It’s politically correct bullshit, and Bioware should be ashamed of themselves for caving to it.

    Your intent is unclear here. Are you suggesting that Bioware should have stood firm by their decision that sexuality is ok to discuss but not LGBT issues? Or are you saying they should have stayed out of the whole issue?

    I’m not familiar with the common topics of discussion over at the Bioware community boards, but maybe I’m just lucky that way. If they had frequent discussions regarding sexuality over there instead of concentrating on game development, then maybe Bioware should have assigned a adult to take charge of the monkey house to keep them from throwing shit at each other. Those whose limited attention span prevented them from staying on topic should have been booted so that they could carry on their stupid conversations over at Hustler Online, or some similar high quality site where that kind of crap is appreciated.

    Yeah, I’m a curmudgeon, and damn proud of it too. Let return to talking about games, shall we? DarkFall, as it so happens, is turning out to be a damn fine game with plenty of PvP goodness to go around for those who appreciate that kind of thing…

  60. Joshua Meadows says:

    I hope everyone here whining about how discussing sexuality in a video game ruins immersion, has no place or otherwise steals your virginity has never, in any capacity explicit or implied, discussed the following in any massively multiplayer virtual dungeon fantasy sci-fi 3D avatar etc-game:

    1. What pets you have.
    2. What sports you enjoy.
    2a. What sports teams you enjoy.
    3. What your gender is, if you don’t use voice.
    4. Where you’re from.
    5. What school you go/went to.
    6. “I can’t raid tomorrow, my girlfriend wants to do this.”
    7. “Oh shit something funny just was on the TV let me tell you about it!”
    8. You get my point.

    If Bioware et al wants to outlaw the discussion of *any and all relationships and any and all sexuality* in their game, that’s fine, I can live with that. But as is so often the case the standard is only applied one way.

    And crying about how hearing about gay people or politics or whatever ruins your game is really stupid. I don’t go through WoW announcing that I sucked cock last night, but I can’t say I’ve ever played once when I didn’t have to hear “You guys are fucking fags, this instance is gay.” But if I complain, I’m the whiner? We both have the option to ignore; I generally roll my eyes at those comments, if they’re abusive I act accordingly. But man up and don’t expect to control other people hypocritically.

  61. Bugz says:

    I for one, do not cry about what stupid people talk about on game forums. I don’t bother with them, so I really and truly don’t give a shit. One thing I am profoundly happy with is that in DarkFall, if you really feel an obsessive need to discuss your sexualilty in any of the chat forums, I completely free to repeatedly gank you into oblivion. Players who do not play DarkFall do not have that luxury. Sucks to be you.

    I guess that makes me a griefer.

  62. Joshua Meadows says:

    Bugz :
    I for one, do not cry about what stupid people talk about on game forums. I don’t bother with them, so I really and truly don’t give a shit. One thing I am profoundly happy with is that in DarkFall, if you really feel an obsessive need to discuss your sexualilty in any of the chat forums, I completely free to repeatedly gank you into oblivion. Players who do not play DarkFall do not have that luxury. Sucks to be you.
    I guess that makes me a griefer.

    Or it makes my penis bigger than yours.

    Ooh, did I mention sexuality again? o_0

  63. Bugz says:

    You don’t happen to play DarkFall do you?

  64. Joshua Meadows says:

    Bugz :
    You don’t happen to play DarkFall do you?

    I don’t live in Europe; as far as I’m aware Shadowbane-lite isn’t available anywhere else, right?

  65. Say Darkfall again.
    Say Darkfall again!
    I dare you.
    I double dare you motherf**ker.
    Say Darkfall one more goddamn time!
    Do they speak English in Darkfall?

  66. Joshua Meadows says:

    Scott Jennings :
    Say Darkfall again.
    Say Darkfall again!
    I dare you.
    I double dare you motherf**ker.
    Say Darkfall one more goddamn time!
    Do they speak English in Darkfall?

    In Darkfall, English speaks you.

  67. Jessica Mulligan says:

    dartwick :
    Developers wouldnt be in the box if half the gay community didnt get their panties in a knot every time someone uses gay as a mild pejorative.

    Yeah, come on! I mean, you’d have to be lazy as a nigger to get offended at that. I was discussing this same thing with a spic and a kike just the other day and we all agreed that waving your arms around and whining like a wop with no pizza about that just makes you look like your average GOP trailer trash ho. Or a gamer; we had a hard time figuring out which.

  68. Paks says:

    And with the above I’ll just say:

    Game, set, and match bitches.

  69. Joshua Meadows says:

    Also, Scott, I hate you for making this blog post. Don’t you think I already argue with people on the internet enough? 😛

  70. Vetarnias says:

    *Sigh* Now it’s Penny Arcade:
    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/4/29/

  71. taodon says:

    Jessica Mulligan :

    dartwick :
    Developers wouldnt be in the box if half the gay community didnt get their panties in a knot every time someone uses gay as a mild pejorative.

    Yeah, come on! I mean, you’d have to be lazy as a nigger to get offended at that. I was discussing this same thing with a spic and a kike just the other day and we all agreed that waving your arms around and whining like a wop with no pizza about that just makes you look like your average GOP trailer trash ho. Or a gamer; we had a hard time figuring out which.

    I’m offended you didn’t use faggot or chink. Obviously you failed to mention them both because you’re a homophobic anti-asianist. But, the fact you didn’t mention frogs – that’s probably good – everyone hates the French anyway.

  72. Bugz says:

    Scott Jennings :Say Darkfall again.Say Darkfall again!I dare you.I double dare you motherf**ker.Say Darkfall one more goddamn time!Do they speak English in Darkfall?

    DarkFall.

    C’Mon, Lum. If you haven’t played DF (admittedly, this is difficult right now), ranting against it without first hand knowledge makes you sound like the old crazy coot hollering, “You damn kids, git the Hell off my lawn!”

    DarkFall, contrary to some people’s expectations, is turning out to be a very good game, assuming you like a pvp-centric game.

    I have yet to read anything other than English in any of the chat channels, by the way, but that might be a function of the time of day when I log in. All the Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, etc. may be asleep then. I have heard some very thick accents in the Ventrillo voice chat channel my guild runs, though…

  73. You realize this post has nothing to do with Darkfall, right?

    I mean, you *are* aware of this.

    I have made posts about Darkfall before, by the way.

    (also, I’m pretty sure you didn’t get the joke.)

  74. Bugz says:

    Joshua Meadows :

    Bugz :You don’t happen to play DarkFall do you?

    I don’t live in Europe; as far as I’m aware Shadowbane-lite isn’t available anywhere else, right?

    I live in Utah, which is pretty far removed from Europe, although I have been told that some folks consider it to be a separate country anyway.

    The truth is, only the cool people are playing DarkFall in the U.S. right now.

    You don’t play? Oh.

  75. Joshua Meadows says:

    Bugz :
    I live in Utah

    Ah. Say no more, friend. \o/

  76. foolsage says:

    Bugz :
    I for one, do not cry about what stupid people talk about on game forums.

    Amusingly, you complain about what people talk about on blog comments though.

    Also, I think you missed Lum’s reference with the Darkfall bit. But then, the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Or so I’m told. 😛

    Edit: Damn, timing is everything. Lum just gave it away.

  77. Bugz says:

    Scott Jennings :You realize this post has nothing to do with Darkfall, right?
    I mean, you *are* aware of this.
    I have made posts about Darkfall before, by the way.
    (also, I’m pretty sure you didn’t get the joke.)

    Sure I got the joke, and sure I realize this thread isn’t about DarkFall, but I’m trying to perform a public service here by steering the conversation away from stupid shit about people going into convulsions because “THERE ARE NO GAYS IN STAR WARS!!!111!1eleventy”

    It’s clearly not working, so I’ll quit spamming the thread.

  78. geldonyetich says:

    How did a comment thread about what constitutes appropriate levels of gay reference come to be a thread about Darkfall?

    Oh, right.

    Carry on.

  79. Freakazoid says:

    @neispace
    I have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe you just ran across some bullshit propaganda on an unregulated forum? The internet is never short on conspiracy nuts spreading the latest government secrets wherever they can.

  80. neispace says:

    freakzoid: I found it, it was called neo-tech. I’m not sure that they used that term though, but there were batshit-insane randians with a tendency to overun usenet, and that’s what I thought of when they banned that term.

  81. […] BioWare caused the Internet to explode and absolutely everyone seems to be talking about the whole issue that was brought up there – and if you […]

  82. Gx1080 says:

    First, DarkFall. That said, the guy that said that people do grow of the “im a victim” standard, thank god for that, i was honestly starting to believe that wasn’t possible.

  83. Davide says:

    I don’t think LGBT is inclusive enough and offends lots of people that the four letters don’t mention, like Asexual, Autosexual, Pansexual, Polysexual, Pomosexual, Zoosexual, Objectum-sexual, or Artifical Sexual (robot love).

    And what about Hermaphrodites, Androgynins, Hijra’s, Eunuchs, Fetishism, Concubinage, Courtesanshipism, Hypergamism, and Sadomasicism?

    Maybe I am Polyamorous and want to marry a bunch of other characters, or polygamous.

    Why can’t my male character wear women’s clothing in game?

    Or vice versa?

    And if I discover at some point that I am transgendered can I get my naughty bits cut off (or added) and change the sex of my character?

    Can I take hormones to start the process and help me decide if I want to go all the way with the procedure? Test drive a beard on my female character, for example.

    Why can’t my transgendered character speak in the proper voice?

    I also want to be referred to with the proper pronoun, no simple he/she for me thank you.

    And make sure you have all the proper symbols to represent any behaviour I have mentioned.

    Maybe..

    Maybe …

    Um…..

    (Head explodes)

  84. Banegrivm says:

    This is my first time responding here, but I’ve been reading Scott’s blog off and on. Personally I find the whole gay/lesbian thing and trying to bring it into something that’s a game I feel is just appalling. I’m not gay, I don’t support gays, so why should I have it forced down my throat? If you want to be gay, go be gay. Doesn’t mean I need to hear about it. Doesn’t mean people’s kids that play these games especially need to hear about it either. I have to agree like others, I’m disappointed that Bioware cow towed to this politically correct garbage. The hat is old and worn thin. Usually the first response, is often the right one and that’s definitely the case here. I guess Bioware truly is EA now.

  85. Joshua Meadows says:

    Banegrivm :
    This is my first time responding here, but I’ve been reading Scott’s blog off and on. Personally I find the whole gay/lesbian thing and trying to bring it into something that’s a game I feel is just appalling. I’m not gay, I don’t support gays, so why should I have it forced down my throat? If you want to be gay, go be gay. Doesn’t mean I need to hear about it. Doesn’t mean people’s kids that play these games especially need to hear about it either. I have to agree like others, I’m disappointed that Bioware cow towed to this politically correct garbage. The hat is old and worn thin. Usually the first response, is often the right one and that’s definitely the case here. I guess they truly are EA now.

    I just want you to know, since I quoted your post– you caught it. That’s right. I can do that. You’re gay now.

    Hope you like sequined shoes.

  86. TPRJones says:

    I don’t understand. I was under the impression that no one in Star Wars has sex, or poops for that matter. If there is no sex there is no gays, nyet?

    Not at all homophobic, because there are no straights, either. Not to mention the implications of permenant universal constipation.

  87. Guy says:

    “permenant universal constipation”

    Oh, that’s a great phrase…

    Response to Banegrivm’s post (for the benefit of those who are uninformed): People are born gay. Just like they’re born straight. It’s not a hobby.

  88. chaos_engineer says:

    Not You :
    Actually, poll after poll and election after election clearly shows the majority is against gay marriage. Even in liberal California.

    Yes, but it’s not as bad as it sounds. The polls are also showing that support for gay marriage has been increasing at a steady 2% a year. I’d guess that gay marriage will be legal in most of New England by the end of 2009…the New Hampshire legislature just passed a gay marriage bill (it’s not clear whether the governor will sign it), and there’s also legislation working its way through the system in Maine and New York.

    The recent court ruling in Iowa didn’t seem to create a lot of outrage. I think what happened is that the Republican Party leadership did the math and realized that they need to abandon the homophobia if they want to win any elections ever again. That message is slowly trickling down through the ranks but it might take a couple of months to reach the talk radio hosts, and maybe a year before the major bloggers fall into line.

    California has an unfortunate number of bigots once you get out of the big cities, but if current trends hold, a gay marriage referendum will probably pass in 2010, or 2012 at the latest.

    So don’t get discouraged! In ten years, it’s a good bet that gay marriages will be recognized at the Federal level and in all the states except maybe Utah and the Deep South.

    The LGBTQ community is simply louder and more obnoxious.

    Oh, my! The LGBTQ people I know are hardly ever loud and never obnoxious. Most of them are polite and soft-spoken.

    It sounds like you’ve been hanging out with an unusually trashy part of the community. You should widen your circle of friends!

  89. TPRJones says:

    Banegrivm :If you want to be gay, go be gay.

    You do know it doesn’t work that way, right? I mean seriously, consider this: do you recall the day when you were young and in early puberty and looked at boys and girls and decided from that day forward which one would cause you to pop a boner? No? Right, you didn’t, because you were born with your sex drive pointing in a particular direction and the other group holds no interest for you. It’s exactly the same way for homosexuals.

    The only people that “choose” to be gay or straight are people born bisexual that then decide to limit their choices for whatever reason. And even then the odds are they’ll still get excited by the other group they’ve chosen against, they’ll just deny that interest because they’ve decided to pretend it doesn’t exist.

    Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you on a political or religious agenda.

  90. Jeff says:

    TPRJones :

    Banegrivm :If you want to be gay, go be gay.

    You do know it doesn’t work that way, right? I mean seriously, consider this: do you recall the day when you were young and in early puberty and looked at boys and girls and decided from that day forward which one would cause you to pop a boner? No? Right, you didn’t, because you were born with your sex drive pointing in a particular direction and the other group holds no interest for you. It’s exactly the same way for homosexuals.
    The only people that “choose” to be gay or straight are people born bisexual that then decide to limit their choices for whatever reason. And even then the odds are they’ll still get excited by the other group they’ve chosen against, they’ll just deny that interest because they’ve decided to pretend it doesn’t exist.
    Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you on a political or religious agenda.

    Bane’s point is still spot on.

    Sniping at one line doesn’t change that.

  91. Sara Pickell says:

    Jeff :
    Bane’s point is still spot on.
    Sniping at one line doesn’t change that.

    Bane’s “point” was that he didn’t want to hear about gay people so nobody should be allowed to acknowledge their existence in games. That’s not a point that’s just being a selfish prick. You don’t get to cherry pick the groups of people that are allowed to exist while you’re around.

  92. TPRJones says:

    Sniping at one line doesn’t change that.
    I’m not just sniping at one point, I’m pointing out just how ignorant a particular – and disappointingly common – concept is. It’s admittedly a bit off-topic, but I still felt compelled to address it.

  93. Guy says:

    It’s sniping to highlight the core attitude of the poster? And to identify the core misunderstanding that drives that attitude?

  94. Jeff R says:

    Sara Pickell :

    Jeff :Bane’s point is still spot on.Sniping at one line doesn’t change that.

    Bane’s “point” was that he didn’t want to hear about gay people so nobody should be allowed to acknowledge their existence in games. That’s not a point that’s just being a selfish prick. You don’t get to cherry pick the groups of people that are allowed to exist while you’re around.

    That’s not what he said, which would be clear to you if you could read his post sans agenda.

    Whatever your sexual preference is, the whole server doesn’t need to know about it. In a nutshell that is what Bane is saying.

    Star Wars in particular has no reference to gay couples in its movies or novels, wo why even go there? The mod was right, it doesn’t exist in Star Wars.

    For the love of my great aunt Petunia, get over yourselves already.

  95. Guy says:

    The whole “it doesn’t exist in Star Wars” thing was a pathetic excuse to end the discussion, nothing more. The real reason is PR (fear of losing homophobic subscribers?).

    And besides, if George Lucas jumped off a cliff, would you jump off it too?

    (I am not saying George Lucas left gays out of Star Wars because he was against them, or even intentionally… but what if he did? Do you actually think that would strengthen your moral position?)

  96. Jeff says:

    Guy :
    The whole “it doesn’t exist in Star Wars” thing was a pathetic excuse to end the discussion, nothing more. The real reason is PR (fear of losing homophobic subscribers?).
    And besides, if George Lucas jumped off a cliff, would you jump off it too?
    (I am not saying George Lucas left gays out of Star Wars because he was against them, or even intentionally… but what if he did? Do you actually think that would strengthen your moral position?)

    You need to learn the difference between an excuse and a fact. I’m simply stating the facts. The only real reason for recanting on their position is not PR but political correctness. Would you rather apologize or watch the left wing hype machine blow up this nonsensical issue into astronomical levels of asininity? When a company is facing the decision of whether they want talk about the game to be about the game or instead about a small minority being the squeaky wheel that wants their grease, they are going to choose the first option.

    Especially when, through no fault of their own, they already have to prove to the world they are not a second coming of Galaxies.

    It’s a damn shame. What was said by the Bipware/EA PR guy was fact. Some people may not like that fact, and instead of just getting over themselves, they make enough noise that it just becomes nonsensical to anyone that has an ounce of self respect or self worth.

  97. Jeff says:

    Let me put this another way.

    If someone wanted something to do with Jesus, as in the Christ, put in the game, and a Bioware Developer or PR guy said “Jesus doesn’t exist in Star Wars,” would there be this big of a bruhaha going on?

    I think not.

    Because the simple fact is, other than some religious overtones in “the force”, JESUS DOESN’T EXIST IN STAR WARS.

  98. Guy says:

    Facts can serve perfectly well as excuses. The point is it can be an irrelevant fact, unrelated to the actual decision process used, despite being a fact. In this case, the real decision process is “let’s not antagonize potential players who might feel uncomfortable about gays, because it would cost us money”. See, had nothing to do with the fact there have been no gay characters or gay themes in Star Wars.

    The reason they recanted was *identical*. They accidentally pissed off another group that could be potential customers. There are many squeaky wheels; both those not wanting any whiff of gay issues and those objecting to its being blocked have demands. In this case they are mutually exclusive, and so the company, as Lum said, is in a lose-lose situation.

    Accepting his excuse at face value and basis for decision-making is a poor choice.

  99. IainC says:

    Jeff :
    Let me put this another way.
    If someone wanted something to do with Jesus, as in the Christ, put in the game, and a Bioware Developer or PR guy said “Jesus doesn’t exist in Star Wars,” would there be this big of a bruhaha going on?
    I think not.
    Because the simple fact is, other than some religious overtones in “the force”, JESUS DOESN’T EXIST IN STAR WARS.

    This is a false equivalency. Jesus doesn’t exist in the Star War universe but relationships do. Your analogy is absurd.

  100. Ardanna says:

    Personally I think this was a ham handed way of dealing with this. It was a dumbass response and that’s what’s most disappointing to me. This person is supposed to be a PAID communications specialist who made a fairly sweeping political comment (he/she had to knew it would be a charged political issue) flippantly.

    That’s one of the most disappointing things to me and I’ve seen it with all kinds of community representatives, they’re not actually professional communicators in a corporate sense and have little or no training in that regard BUT are in a position to speak for the company to “the masses”.

    If this were some other corporation (not some gaming company where product and other customers expectations can be low apparently) you can bet they would have had a much more polished and well-reasoned response.

  101. Jeff says:

    There are two types of people in this thread. The people that “get” what the PR guy said, which like me just want to play a Star Wars game without diverse interest groups shoving their sociopolitical agenda in our faces, and group two.

    In case you have not figured that out, group two are the proponents of said sociopolitical agendas, and want to make sure it is everywhere, even in space operas where it never existed in the first place.

    Jesus may not exist in Star Wars, but religion clearly does. Just like relationships clearly existed, just not homosexual ones. The point is still valid. But I am done debating, because group two is too wrapped up in their agendas to even consider the factual or rational.

  102. Sanya says:

    @Jeff

    Since when is “you’re wrong” an agenda?

    The idiot “group two” is castigating is saying homosexuality is a choice (wrong) that teh childrens need to be shielded from (wrong) and that not catering to such bigoted nonsense is somehow a bad thing (wrong again).

    That’s not an agenda. That’s reading comprehension combined with a little common sense.

  103. TPRJones says:

    There’s a third group, Jeff. Those of us that don’t care about the sociopolitical agendas either way but still think the PR guy was being an idiot and an ass.

    Besides, Alec Guinness was gay, so get over it already.

  104. Gx1080 says:

    Oh, this is still ongoing? Jeez, the PR guy was an ass, thats clear.

    We dont know if there isnt gays in Star Wars because is a huge galaxy in war, aka nobody cares of whats between the legs of the guy/girl that you like. Thats also clear.

    You cant eliminate the words just for stopping the drama queens and the 13-year olds idiots. In fact, this is the Internet, you cant eliminate drama queens and 13-year old idiots period.

  105. Gx1080 says:

    And to the drama queens, for me and many of the players in any MMO you saying “Im gay” its like saying “the sky is blue”. Nobody cant forbid people of saying “the sky is blue”, but its not that important. You arent that important. You are just another player. Let your actions as a player be the ones that speak.

    The 13 year-olds are not going to change, no matter what i or anybody does so im not advising them.

  106. Owain says:

    At this point, I feel it’s only appropriate to quote some dialog from Aliens:

    Frost: Hey, I sure wouldn’t mind getting some more of that Arcturian poontang! Remember that time?

    Spunkmeyer: Yeah, Frost, but the one that you had was a male!

    Hudson: It doesn’t matter when it’s Arcturian, baby!

    In an entire galaxy, I’m sure there are combinations and permutaions stranger than we can even imagine, so I don’t think I’ll be worrying much about it myself.

%d bloggers like this: