Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry Ninjalooter

Ten Ton Hammer has braved the rocks and shoals of Darkfall, this month’s MMO kinda-sorta-maybe-launch.

I’m proud to report that no player has managed to kill me yet (though a few have tried) so I haven’t had my body looted. Instead, what these players will do is wait for you to get jumped by more than one mob, then loot the tombstones (mobs become tombstones instead of corpses) while you’re fighting for your life. This is old school EverQuest ninja-looting brought back tenfold. I can’t count the amount of times this happened to me.

Just in case, for some unimaginable reason, you were planning on allowing your teenager to play this game… there is no filter. I don’t mean there’s no filter in the chat channels, I mean there doesn’t appear to be a filter with the naming system either. A sizable number of the players I ran across had names that I quite literally cannot type here and still keep things teen friendly.

Speaking of things non-filtered, let me step back and describe the general chat channels (Public and Racial) a little better. You know how people like creating various drinking games based around the concept of a phrase or action being repeated? I strongly encourage you to resist this urge when it comes to Darkfall. If you had to take a shot every time someone said newb, carebear, gay, or a smorgasbord of other words I simply won’t repeat here, you would be dead from alcohol poisoning in less than an hour. While the game is still very much in beta, what I experienced in the world is still the worst example of an online community I’ve ever encountered, without question.

Despite all of this, the combat model and the reviewer’s “inner old-schooler” makes it a basically positive ‘preview’. Which goes to show you how much community matters in a game!

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48 Responses to Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry Ninjalooter

  1. dartwick says:

    Or maybe it shows that community doesnt matter if you have friends.

  2. yunk says:

    I think they need to make looting bodies generate threat on mobs, for instance “hey he’s rooting through my friend’s pockets! get him!” that would help forstall some of that and make it more real.

  3. Blackblade says:

    But! But! But!

    Darkfall is for the HARDCORE! This is the purification! All the n00bs who can’t take the heat will get PWNED hardcore, and the whiney wimps well go away, leaving only the best to create the best community in any MMO EVAR! They don’t need no CAREBEARS! Go back to WoW!

    /End sarcasm.

    Seriously.. Did anyone with a functioning cerebral cortex NOT see this coming?

  4. jinstevens says:

    Lord of the Flies finds new life as a MMO.

  5. Naladini says:

    Doesn’t this sort of “magnet game” make every other MMO’s existence a bit better though? Or does it come back and bite the existing titles by allowing bad habits?

  6. Hatch says:

    this game will implode. Hardcore people actually need carebears to slaughter to push their fun buttons.

  7. Blackblade says:

    Naladini :
    Doesn’t this sort of “magnet game” make every other MMO’s existence a bit better though? Or does it come back and bite the existing titles by allowing bad habits?

    It does, so long as the “magnet” holds.

    While it would be good if it attracted people with over-zealous aggressive personalities and tendencies (Being kind, here), the problem is, eventually they get sick of people like them. See, when the wolves eat all the sheep, all that’s left are other wolves.

    Granted, you may have some that stick with it, but a substantial portion of those would-be wolves retreat back from whence they came.

  8. Hawken says:

    Blackblade :

    Naladini :Doesn’t this sort of “magnet game” make every other MMO’s existence a bit better though? Or does it come back and bite the existing titles by allowing bad habits?

    It does, so long as the “magnet” holds.
    While it would be good if it attracted people with over-zealous aggressive personalities and tendencies (Being kind, here), the problem is, eventually they get sick of people like them. See, when the wolves eat all the sheep, all that’s left are other wolves.
    Granted, you may have some that stick with it, but a substantial portion of those would-be wolves retreat back from whence they came.

    This could easily also apply to a pure pve type game where the wolves you so speak of are the Powerlevelers err Overachievers.

  9. Belsameth says:

    @Hawken: Less so. At least in a PvE/Consentual PvP game it’s rather hard for the power levelers to ruin your game.

    I’m interested how it all turns out tho. I like the free form idea behind it. I just think they went a bit overboard with it. Eve, for me, strikes the right balance.

  10. Anticorium says:

    This could easily also apply to a pure pve type game where the wolves you so speak of are the Powerlevelers

    Except it doesn’t, because PvE gaming isn’t zero-sum.

  11. Blackblade says:

    Hawken :
    This could easily also apply to a pure pve type game where the wolves you so speak of are the Powerlevelers err Overachievers.

    I’m sorry, I honestly don’t understand.

    Are you making a comparison (based on my likely false or poorly stated statement) between the “wolves” or PK/Gank/Griefers in a PvP game with a power-leveler in a PvE game?

    If that is the comparison you are making, I can sort of understand your point. However, the rate at which a power-leveler gains has no direct baring on me, at least in my experience. The first mage to get to 80 in WoW didn’t impact the slow leveling of my Paladin, nor did it detract from my enjoyment of it.

    Perhaps in a world of sheep and wolves, I’m an eggplant? 🙂

    Sorry, hope I’m making sense, even if I can’t explain it very well.

  12. Vetarnias says:

    As a latecomer to MMO’s, when I hear of “old schoolers”, it’s always something inherently alien because I wasn’t playing at the time.

    However, based on what I gather, the “old school” idea has always been some nostalgic view of the early days of gaming which never actually occurred (my view being perhaps enhanced by the Unbearable Darkness of UO article), or at least not in the way the “old schoolers” see it.

    The Vetarnias School of Unsought Armchair MMO Punditry would claim instead that:

    1) The “old schoolers” now see a “carebearization” of the genre, meaning abandoning traditional concepts of gaming such as risk. What I’m seeing is rather that “old school” MMO’s were basically sailing into uncharted waters, with no knowledge of what would happen (despite MUDs). A design flaw became seen as a design choice.

    2) Developers have been throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Glaring exceptions notwithstanding (Shadowbane, EVE), most developers in the years that followed UO were aware of the pitfalls, and instead aimed for ultra-safe designs. EverQuest opened the new path by offering an alternative to pre-Trammel UO. EVE’s success might have led to some restraint in discarding all the risk of UO, but if anything it was offset by the failure of Shadowbane, not to mention…

    3) That certain MMO of Blizzard’s. Dwarfing everything else, it was the culmination of the mentality of everybody-a-hero and of the unbearably safe. No skill involved, only the player’s time. Instances galore, without even so much as player housing. It’s a giant treadmill, but people loved and still do love it. The effect of this has been two-fold: First, every other company took note and hoped to eat into Blizzard’s market share. Second, it polarized the player base, with proponents of the original UO, then EVE and Shadowbane, feeling not only neglected but pilloried. With increasing game development costs, their chances of getting another FFA PvP game like a well-done version of Shadowbane dwindled to practically nothing.

    4) Early MMO’s weren’t so dominated by pre-formed guilds. You could show up in the game, perhaps with a few real-life friends, talk with other people. You’d create a small guild, then you would expand. It didn’t yet feel like a superstore-vs-superstore business war then. Oh, most of the “old schoolers” are perfectly happy with their large guilds (especially if they’re in charge), but I’m wondering how many of them, deep down, wouldn’t like to return to those early days when you could build groups and guilds from scratch. When MMO’s were nerd-chic instead of mainstream and creatively corrupt.

    So you get a game like EVE, which pushes all the right buttons and pulls all the right levers (not in practice, but in theory). Complete freedom. One huge, instance-less world. Looting. Sieges. And so on, and so on. Blatantly exploits the UO nostalgia, that good old time when your hairline wasn’t receding and you didn’t have to worry about your job or paying the mortgage or feeding the kids, when your future seemed limitless instead of the crappy dead-end low-rank white-collar drudgery now filling up most of your days.

    All that pressure released through a badly underfunded and woefully incomplete video game. Is it any wonder that all of this is taking place with Darkfall?

  13. Vetarnias says:

    @Vetarnias
    My mistake. Second to last paragraph should have read Darkfall instead of EVE.

  14. Hawken says:

    Blackblade :

    Hawken :This could easily also apply to a pure pve type game where the wolves you so speak of are the Powerlevelers err Overachievers.

    I’m sorry, I honestly don’t understand.
    Are you making a comparison (based on my likely false or poorly stated statement) between the “wolves” or PK/Gank/Griefers in a PvP game with a power-leveler in a PvE game?
    If that is the comparison you are making, I can sort of understand your point. However, the rate at which a power-leveler gains has no direct baring on me, at least in my experience. The first mage to get to 80 in WoW didn’t impact the slow leveling of my Paladin, nor did it detract from my enjoyment of it.
    Perhaps in a world of sheep and wolves, I’m an eggplant?
    Sorry, hope I’m making sense, even if I can’t explain it very well.

    Yeah the only difference is the content is the sheep. And it does sort of affect you in different ways. Rasing the level cap, new content YOU will never get to, etc.

    Thats why I personally quit playing WoW. There was literally TOO MUCH content for my ego to be able to ever fulfill. I would rather have items that don’t mean as much, a non level based system, and freedom to do as I please, then just have carrots constantly dangling in front of me.

    It is a virtual world, I don’t think I am gonna cry if Rolling 30’s sacs my town in some exploitable fervor. So you killed me and took all my stuff? But I worked so hard for it. Gimme a break.

  15. Anticorium says:

    No skill involved, only the player’s time.

    That certainly explains why you can hand a complete novice a level 80 toon and a summon to Sarth+3, and watch them do juuuust fiiine.

  16. Anticorium says:

    There was literally TOO MUCH content for my ego to be able to ever fulfill.

    I’m sorry the game made you feel small. Perhaps you should look at what you have achieved, not what you haven’t done. You can do the same thing you do with real life, which also contains too much content for you to ever fulfill, and cope with not being able to win World of Warcraft in the same way that you cope with how you will never be a billionaire astronaut who plays to sold-out crowds in Madison Square Garden and then goes home to a harem of supermodels.

  17. morphene says:

    Making fun of AV was good fun, and making fun of the game just makes good sense, but making fun of people who might sort-of like said game just makes you come off as bitter or (god-forbid) genre-hating. For what it’s worth.

  18. Hawken says:

    Anticorium :There was literally TOO MUCH content for my ego to be able to ever fulfill.
    I’m sorry the game made you feel small. Perhaps you should look at what you have achieved, not what you haven’t done. You can do the same thing you do with real life, which also contains too much content for you to ever fulfill, and cope with not being able to win World of Warcraft in the same way that you cope with how you will never be a billionaire astronaut who plays to sold-out crowds in Madison Square Garden and then goes home to a harem of supermodels.

    This has been said so many times its STAGGERING. “This is a game, WoW is a game, this is not real life.”

  19. Anticorium says:

    This is a game, WoW is a game, this is not real life.

    And yet you’re taking it more seriously than real life! Unless the way you cope with never being a billionaire astronaut rock star is also to feel that it is crushing your ego.

  20. Hawken says:

    Im “competitive” for sure when it comes to any type of “game”. Although in chess I can’t loot your corpse after I mate your king, but I would love to loot your fucking Orc or maybe kill your miner while your getting yourself some ore.

  21. Blackblade says:

    Hawken :
    Yeah the only difference is the content is the sheep. And it does sort of affect you in different ways. Rasing the level cap, new content YOU will never get to, etc.

    See, that doesn’t really bother me, but that’s a personal viewpoint. I think the only real “raid” material I’ve ever seen is AQ20 and the new Wintergrasp Raid, so you could technically argue I’ve never raided. I’ve never even seen Onyxia until she was soloable.

    But for me, not seeing most of that content isn’t a problem. I don’t care if I ever see it or not. I’d like to, but the fact is that even without experiencing that content, I still enjoy the content I can actually experience. That’s what keeps me there.

    I like to PvP, so I like the BG’s and WG, but I’m certainly not Arena material. Does that make me less of a PvP’er? Just because more competitive players have better gear doesn’t mean they always win. One on one? Maybe.. But every no and again, I get a sucker who really has more time then skill, and it feels nice to school them in my crappy gear. And when it’s a zergfest on all sides? Well, all bets are off 🙂

  22. Anticorium says:

    Well, that’s nice, but what does that have to do with your ego feeling hurt by PvE content?

  23. JuJutsu says:

    “Despite all of this, the combat model and the reviewer’s “inner old-schooler” makes it a basically positive ‘preview’. Which goes to show you how much community matters in a game!”

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Will his inner old-schooler still be playing Darkfall 6 months from now? If Hawken is right, Darkfall will leave Warhammer in the dust and be adding servers like mad. If Lum is right, The 1 server they have now will be more than ample.

    Personally, I think that 6 months from now the ‘old schoolers’ will be telling us that there’s a big market for FFA PvP but it just needs to be properly implemented…not like Darkfall and Shadowbane.

    But time will tell.

  24. morphene says:

    JuJutsu :
    Personally, I think that 6 months from now the ‘old schoolers’ will be telling us that there’s a big market for FFA PvP but it just needs to be properly implemented…not like Darkfall and Shadowbane.

    Have you actually played darkfall? I did for a long time in beta, but I wouldn’t give those monkeys 50 euros for a half finished game. There is a strong argument (sb.exe anyone) that your statement is actually true, minus any of the irony. It may be because ffa pvp is too much of a niche, but the recent efforts have been rather poor examples of coding.

  25. JuJutsu says:

    “There is a strong argument (sb.exe anyone) that your statement is actually true, minus any of the irony. It may be because ffa pvp is too much of a niche, but the recent efforts have been rather poor examples of coding.”

    For once I wasn’t being a sarcastic asshat [not intentionally anyway], Aventurine is looking like the Keystone Kops of MMO companies in a number of different ways. It’s just my opinion, but I think that the technical problems with FFA PvP games is related to the small market base. Companies with deeper pockets want bigger markets.

    There’s definitely money to be made with PvP. How many mmos don’t have PvP? We’ll see how much money there is in Pre-Trammel UO with 3D graphics.

  26. Syncaine says:

    Selective quoting, so difficult to do. And quoting a beta review of a game that is live, that makes no difference in the MMO space, right?

    For the first quote, you forgot this little semi-important piece:

    “I’ve heard the problem becomes far less prevalent when you get out of the starting areas”

    Gee you think? So in a game with open looting, are you saying hanging out SOLO in a crowded space might not be the best idea? You mean you have to THINK ahead before bashing NPCs? The horror, why are all these other players in my game, effecting me? I want my solo player MMO, and I want it now!

    The second, considering the game won’t be rated Teen, what point are we making here exactly? That general chat in an MMO is not high-brow? You are kidding. And all this time I thought Barrens chat was so educational.

  27. Hawken says:

    “There’s definitely money to be made with PvP. How many mmos don’t have PvP? We’ll see how much money there is in Pre-Trammel UO with 3D graphics.”

    Pre-Trammel UO with 3d graphics. Pre-trammel UO in 2d would be enough to make me happy, in 3d we have a whole new generation of Miners that need to be ganked.

  28. morphene says:

    JuJutsu :
    It’s just my opinion, but I think that the technical problems with FFA PvP games is related to the small market base. Companies with deeper pockets want bigger markets.

    I can’t argue with you there, it’s what I’ve come to believe as well. It’s too bad though that no AAA titles are interested in doing what turbine did with darktide (probably because of the trail of fail being left more recently). And no, daoc FFA doesn’t really count in my mind Scott – Walt was, what, the only full time resource on that project in development? And mythic couldn’t figure out what went wrong? There has to be a middle ground. B- dev companies fail, and AAA companies won’t touch it, therefore it’s unworkable? /shrug

  29. Syncaine :

    Selective quoting, so difficult to do. And quoting a beta review of a game that is live, that makes no difference in the MMO space, right?

    The link’s less than a week old, and the quotes are fairly representative, and I did note that the overall takeaway was that the author enjoyed the game in spite of the points noted. Apologies if you believed otherwise. Also, with a cap of 5000 players, Darkfall is still arguably in beta, albeit one people are paying for.

    Were the points I highlighted from the article (consequence-free ninjalooting and lack of filtering of player names and the general toxicity of the player base in general) changed in the past week?

  30. Oh, hi, while we’re discussing ‘selective quoting’:

    So in a game with open looting, are you saying hanging out SOLO in a crowded space might not be the best idea? You mean you have to THINK ahead before bashing NPCs? The horror, why are all these other players in my game, effecting me? I want my solo player MMO, and I want it now!

    The writer was not complaining about being looted himself while soloing, but by other people looting his PvE kills and being unable to respond without flagging himself. Which I’m sure you’re aware of, but chose to misrepresent for your own reasons.

    The second, considering the game won’t be rated Teen, what point are we making here exactly? That general chat in an MMO is not high-brow? You are kidding. And all this time I thought Barrens chat was so educational.

    Again, there is a considerable difference of scale between suffering through brain-dead general chat channels (which can be turned off) and character names (which cannot be turned off) which are more appropriate for 4chan /b/ posts than an MMO, and are a leading indicator of the general tenor of the game’s community. Again, I’m sure you’re quite aware of the difference yet choose to ignore it for your own reasons.

    I eagerly await your next blog post where you use my writing as an example for why the MMO industry is creatively bankrupt and no one makes the hardcore games you so clearly enjoy. Bonus points for using the word “fag” somewhere in your post, I’m given to understand it’s a popular epithet in Darkfall.

  31. sinij says:

    We got it, Dark Fall is not the game for you. You will probably never like it, since you are not their target audience. News at 11, I know.

  32. sinij says:

    Scott Jennings :
    I eagerly await your next blog post where you use my writing as an example for why the MMO industry is creatively bankrupt

    All Darkfall issues aside, we are in 200-fucking-9 and DIKU dinggratz is still prevalent model. When it came out first I did not think I’d be still playing almost 25 years later.

  33. Tim Daniels says:

    Scott PvPs with words.

  34. morphene says:

    Scott Jennings :
    more appropriate for 4chan /b/ posts than an MMO, and are a leading indicator of the general tenor of the game’s community.

    Did you play DF beta? I’m assuming you did from your blog, but obviously that’s a no-no so I don’t expect you to say you did. Anyway, in over a month of pretty active playing I don’t remember a single incident of chat that would have been censored by a typical MMO filter. Nor did I ever see a character named something that evoked 4chan or would have been hit by a similar filter. In any case, do you leave the profanity filter on in wow to shield your eyes? It seems unlikely. As for the ninja issue, I think it’s fair to say that anyone mildly familiar with you could have read a two paragraph description of DF years ago and known you wouldn’t like it – it’s a gameplay issue and, yes, it’s not made by the designers of everquest. But trying to take DF, something that by argument is/will be a failure, and pin it on the community just shows your bigotry. Darkfall is Aventurine’s product, not their players.

  35. sinij says:

    JuJutsu :
    Personally, I think that 6 months from now the ‘old schoolers’ will be telling us that there’s a big market for FFA PvP but it just needs to be properly implemented…not like Darkfall and Shadowbane.
    But time will tell.

    I *am* old school PvPer, I played and *enjoyed* UO, SB. Darkfall concept appeals to me, yet I am staying away from it. Why? Because it is poorly implemented. They made some huge mistakes in their design process, and these mistakes have nothing to do with going open PvP.

  36. morphene :

    Did you play DF beta?

    As Sinij accurately noted, I am not the target market (I prefer PvP with some vague hope of balance or strategy, which probably makes me a horrible carebear). I am taking word of the ‘community tenor’ second hand from reviews (like the one noted in this blog post) and first hand from second-tier sources such as their forums.

    morphene :
    But trying to take DF, something that by argument is/will be a failure, and pin it on the community just shows your bigotry. Darkfall is Aventurine’s product, not their players.

    First off, if Darkfall can (a) move beyond launch glitches and (b) prosper with a business model of 20k to 50k subscribers, they won’t be a failure.

    Second, are you saying that the DF community has no responsibility for their actions? I honestly don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. If a hostile community chases away new players (as seen in other free-PvP unpoliced games) then while that is something that can be mitigated by design to a degree (which also takes away from the free/unpoliced aspect) that also is a function of the toxic nature of the community in question.

  37. Hawken says:

    You really think thats all this game will get subscriber wise?

    They had 83,000+ placed in the first 24 hrs. Granted they COULD NOT process them all but thats how many attempted to buy with their credit card.

    And I dont think they had a budget of 30+ Million.

  38. Yeah, I think they’ll spike at around 100,000 and then settle down to around half that. I even made a blog post to that effect!

    I could be wrong… and if they can sustain growth at 50k and then get 100k and sustain it, well then they get some financial reward for staying up till 3AM on launch week.

    And I’m all about niche games succeeding. I really do hope these guys succeed, even if I personally recoil at the community and think the design has serious issues. Niche games can, will, and do work in the market.

  39. Makaze says:

    @Hawken
    3 month subscription retention in MMOs is typically less than 25% of box sales. Between the problems at launch, the inevitable loss of all the sheep, and the cannibalization of the wolves I suspect Darkfall will be very lucky to come close to that. I also find that figure of 83k to be suspect as I have a feeling a good chunk of that was duplicate transactions due to issues with the ordering system.

    Darkfall will limp on much as WW2O has done, just enough subscribers to keep the lights on and the servers warm. Unless they have creditors and they come calling…

  40. pharniel says:

    would you say that the wolves are actually just hyenas looking for a cheap meal?

    honestly Hyu, the only people I know of that think ‘lord of the flies’ is cool/would want to live that are over at hannit’s commiting sedetion.
    The fact that you strike me as having the MMO version of glibritarian FYIGM arguments leads me to belive that you voted in that poll as well.

    That being said, you are the master of trollery. I wish to perfect just one thing in my life the way you have perfected your craft.

  41. morphene says:

    Scott Jennings :
    First off, if Darkfall can (a) move beyond launch glitches and (b) prosper with a business model of 20k to 50k subscribers, they won’t be a failure.

    Well, since you didn’t play, and there is a large amount of spin going on among fans, I’m not sure what my word is worth but darkfall, as a program, is broken to the core. I say that with 20 years experience in programming. The launch, while amusing to me, did little to change my opinion of it/them. I had already decided not to buy it based on the existing issues and lack of testing. No stress test (they won’t even sell total as many copies as they claim their servers support concurrently), a myriad of exploits (many, but just a taste: bugging mobs and shutting down their AI having no relation to sync problems, geometry exploits), and a siege system (the end game) that is so shallow and full of holes that it feels tacked on at the very end (which it was). A poll on a pvp oriented message board (the one recently linked to Sanya writing on) shows well north of these “hardcore pvpers” taking a pass to start, and we’re certainly not scared away by curse words and ninja looting. Those to me seem like bigger issues to customer acquisition and retention then the community does, at least once they filter out to the community at large, and certainly much larger than a few days of launch problems.

    Scott Jennings :
    Second, are you saying that the DF community has no responsibility for their actions? I honestly don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. If a hostile community chases away new players (as seen in other free-PvP unpoliced games) then while that is something that can be mitigated by design to a degree (which also takes away from the free/unpoliced aspect) that also is a function of the toxic nature of the community in question.

    No, I’m saying:

    a) the darkfall game community didn’t resemble the behavior on the forums for me at all, at least in beta (I know it could have changed, but you used a beta review so I’m using mine)

    b) you play wow a lot, right? Look at the wow forums – pretty shitty over all, no? Does it resemble your in game experience?

    and my main point c) darkfall would likely do poorly even if it had the best community on earth because of fundamentals.

    If there was a great AAA title that catered to the pvp guilds that was implemented well and then tanked, then you’d have a great banner to carry. Of course I’m pretty safe as that’s unlikely to happen. But my main point is the (possible) failure of darkfall is a pretty weak link to indite the community. You already didn’t like us, granted, which makes a fiasco good fodder. But you should aim your rail gun at greece if you want it to hit home.

  42. Syncaine says:

    “The writer was not complaining about being looted himself while soloing, but by other people looting his PvE kills and being unable to respond without flagging himself. Which I’m sure you’re aware of, but chose to misrepresent for your own reasons.”

    I got that, but his complaint revolved around hanging out in the starting area (as I quoted for you), and this becomes less of an issue once you move on. My other point was that if you have guild mates around, it’s far easier to kill/loot than it is solo. As DF is really not geared towards solo play, his compliant is rather minor, yet you seem to continue harping on the issue as if it’s something major. How is this issue any different than when WoW launched and you could not complete a starter quest because all the mobs were camped? At least in DF you can move on to your own area, while in WoW it was ‘play tag till you win’ for hours. End of the day (or month for Blizzard), players move on or the spawn rate is increased, and no one cares.

    One would think DF would give you enough things to go on without having to make issues up. Using the forums as an indicator of how enjoyable a game is is also a really good idea; we all know MMO forums contain nothing but truth and rational debate. 11 million super happy MMO players posting nothing but how they find WoW perfect, right?

    I’m also unclear where you are going with the whole ‘community’ angle. Are you trying to argue that a game fashioned after WoW has a better community than one fashioned after UO/EVE/AC-DT?

  43. Glasseye says:

    Chat filters make my face bleed. I can see the need for puritan folks who quake at the knees at the though of seeing a bare ankle, but I simply wont play a game that does not allow me to disable them.

  44. Drakks says:

    Having played in beta, and not being a hardcore pvp’r on the order of many of DF’s stalwart defenders, I can make the following very easy comparison:

    DF makes AoC look like the textbook definintion of spit, polish, and clever. There were *so* many corners cut in *so* many different areas of developement that DF looks more like a piece of origami than an MMO. Oddly, it plays a lot like a piece of origami too. There are also so many different ways to exploit so many different pieces of the system I have to wonder if it’s going to be easier for them to just call them all “features” just so they can get on to other things. Maybe like “At level 5 you gain the skill to completely ignore world geometery!” or, “With this new ability you can outsmart your foe by shutting off the MOBS AI!”.

    There is a mindbottling amount of just “wow” still. Yes. It bottles the mind.

    I also want to add that my thoughts aren’t a judgement on the genre (didn’t bother me), hardcore pvp (I don’t mind dying a billion times), or the community (gimme a break, I’ve played Wow AND been in the Barrens).

    I honestly think the people defending DF are not defening the actual game, because having played it I’m not sure that’s really possible. I think they are defending an ideal that it represents: the hardcore pvpers right to exist in a market that doesn’t cater to them at all. It’s why these HORRIBLE games are protected by them for as long as even they can stomach them.

  45. gyrus says:

    morphene :
    ….

    Scott Jennings :
    Second, are you saying that the DF community has no responsibility for their actions? I honestly don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. If a hostile community chases away new players (as seen in other free-PvP unpoliced games) then while that is something that can be mitigated by design to a degree (which also takes away from the free/unpoliced aspect) that also is a function of the toxic nature of the community in question.

    No, I’m saying:
    a) the darkfall game community didn’t resemble the behavior on the forums for me at all, at least in beta (I know it could have changed, but you used a beta review so I’m using mine)
    b) you play wow a lot, right? Look at the wow forums – pretty shitty over all, no? Does it resemble your in game experience?
    and my main point c) darkfall would likely do poorly even if it had the best community on earth because of fundamentals.

    @Scott Jennings
    How about: Does Aventurine have no responsibility for the DF community?
    A whole community has been built around an accepted ‘standard’ of behaviour. By not acting from the very beginning the Developers have given tacit approval behaviour has been present in the DF Forums for years. Forum flaming translates to in game ganking?

    Could they have done anything about this in the first place?
    I contest that they could.
    Good Community Management from the very beginning. Establish the rules early on and build and shape the community they wanted (it could be argued they did that!)
    Just because this is a FFA PvP Full Loot game does not mean it has to be ‘nasty’.

    @morphene
    a) Well, I was not there (in Beta) but assuming you are correct this is just another case of a Beta Community not acting the same way as a ‘live’ community. (In WAR, as one example, populations were apparently balanced. Yet when the game went live it was heavily imbalanced in favour of Destruction.)
    b) Wow allows for Solo PvE play (Without being ‘forced’ to PvP) and as such can get away with the sort of rules that govern Single Player Games.
    Community in SP Games is a ‘nice to have’ feature.
    In games with a large element of RvR and / or PvP it is an essential, and unavoidable part of the game.
    c) True. But a good community certainly does not hurt – where as a bad community makes things worse.

  46. Darury says:

    Anticorium :
    And yet you’re taking it more seriously than real life! Unless the way you cope with never being a billionaire astronaut rock star is also to feel that it is crushing your ego.

    You missed Neurosurgeon.. since I’m guessing you were going for the Buckaroo Banzai reference.

  47. Eduin says:

    @Hawken

    Pre-Trammel UO had no competition. You only had miners to gank because they didn’t have an alternative game where they could mine without anit-social tards jumping them for kicks and giggles.

    That’s whats meant by sheep. No-one wants to be a sheep, Hardcore PvPers create sheep by ganking people with no interest in PvP. And if those people don’t exist there is no ganking. There are no sheep. So the only PvP content you will get is against other Hardcore PvP players.

    And the thing is, someone has to lose. The less twitchy, less skilled, less capable. And then they quit too. Its an Ever Decreasing Circle. At the bottom of the foodchain there is *always* someone and that someone doesn’t want to play a game they are bottom of the foodchain. They quit, 99.99% of them quit. They don’t go do a South Park and come back stronger, faster, higher. They generally quit.

    At some point in this cycle, no matter how good you *THINK* you are, you will be that person at the bottom of the foodchain.

    And then you will quit and you will QQ “open PvP works, it just needs to be done right, not like Meridian59 (yeah I *am* old school), not like UO, not like Shadowbane, not like Darkfall”. This is known, its not something I think, its something that is easily observed and empirically documented. It has all happened before and will all happen again.

    You will never get pre-Trammel UO again with wave after wave of miner to get ganked. Because they have alternatives now. All you will get are games which follow a burst of activity at launch then quickly decline over weeks till you are the one being ganked.

    Regards,
    Eduin

  48. Eduin says:

    Scott Jennings :

    Syncaine :
    Selective quoting, so difficult to do. And quoting a beta review of a game that is live, that makes no difference in the MMO space, right?

    The link’s less than a week old, and the quotes are fairly representative, and I did note that the overall takeaway was that the author enjoyed the game in spite of the points noted. Apologies if you believed otherwise. Also, with a cap of 5000 players, Darkfall is still arguably in beta, albeit one people are paying for.
    Were the points I highlighted from the article (consequence-free ninjalooting and lack of filtering of player names and the general toxicity of the player base in general) changed in the past week?

    Interestingly, this is absolutely the worst possible way to set up an open PvP game.

    Cos as they do expand, what do you think the “survivors” of that initial 5000 players will be doing? Hanging around high level instances or hanging around noobie areas ganking?

    I know where my money is.

    Regards,
    Eduin

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